Discussion:
Two scientists say they have come up with a way to make hydrogen fuel cheap enough to compete with gasoline, by combining nuclear and wind power.
(too old to reply)
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-11 20:31:37 UTC
Permalink
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69456,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7

Scientists Offer Hydrogen Fix
02:00 AM Nov. 11, 2005 PT

Two scientists say they have come up with a way to make hydrogen fuel
cheap enough to compete with gasoline, by combining nuclear and wind
power.

In the system envisioned by Alistair Miller and Romney Duffey of Atomic
Energy of Canada, nuclear power plants would be paired with wind
turbines to power electrolysis cells, which make hydrogen by passing an
electric current through water.

Wind on its own is too variable, Miller says, leaving electrolysis
equipment frequently idle and driving up costs. "The economics just
don't work," he says. "It produces very expensive hydrogen."

Pairing it with nuclear would keep the equipment operating closer to
full capacity and bring the cost down, he says. A bonus is that when
the wind is strong and electricity demand is high, excess power can be
sold at a profit to the grid. This means that, unlike traditional
electricity-based hydrogen production, Miller's system actually makes
hydrogen cheaper as the cost of electricity goes up.

Using time-varying electricity price data from Ontario and Alberta,
Miller and Duffey calculate that their system can produce hydrogen at
$2 per kilogram, easily meeting the U.S. Department of Energy's goal of
$2 to $3 per kilogram by 2015. One kilogram of hydrogen is considered
equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.

Miller and Duffey recently presented their system, which they call
NuWind, at the 2005 Canadian Chemical Engineering Conference in
Toronto.

Other hydrogen advocates aren't thrilled about the idea of building
nuclear power plants to produce hydrogen, however.

"The nuclear guys are always trying to come up with arguments to make
their industry more green," says Daniel Sperling, co-director of the
Hydrogen Pathways Program at the University of California at Davis.
"Nuclear's got all kinds of challenges." Concerns raised frequently
include nuclear waste disposal, potential terrorist attacks on reactors
and nuclear weapons proliferation.

Miller argues that radiation from nuclear power plants is tiny compared
to what people get from natural sources and that there are cheaper
paths to nuclear proliferation than building a nuclear power plant. He
also maintains that the risks of terrorist attacks are overblown. "You
can fly a 747 into a nuclear reactor and it's very bad for the 747 but
it won't actually do anything to the meter-thick concrete around the
reactor core," he says.

And given growing concerns about climate change, he says, society can't
afford to dismiss any options for reducing carbon emissions. "We need
all the carbon-free sources we can possibly lay our hands on."

Despite his doubts, Sperling says nuclear shouldn't be dismissed out
of hand for hydrogen production. "I wouldn't see spending money on
nuclear to hydrogen at this point, but we should keep it open as an
option."

Aside from the environmental and security issues, hydrogen from the
nuclear-wind system would have other hurdles to overcome, including the
added costs of distributing the fuel.

"I think it's certainly possible that you can produce hydrogen that's
competitive in price with gasoline and that's produced from a
relatively clean source, if you're including nuclear in that," says
energy market analyst Roberta Gamble of Frost & Sullivan. "The problem
is the transportation of the fuel, the integration into the fuelling
system, and then whether or not it would ever be used."

Gamble is doubtful that fuel-cell cars will catch on among consumers,
especially within the next 10 or 15 years, when the nuclear-wind system
would be most useful. After that, other hydrogen-production
technologies being researched could be ready and might make the
nuclear-wind system obsolete.

Nearly all hydrogen today is obtained from natural gas in a process
called steam methane reforming. But unlike electrolysis, this method
produces carbon dioxide, and is growing more expensive as natural gas
prices rise.
Bob Eldred
2005-11-11 21:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69456,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7
Scientists Offer Hydrogen Fix
02:00 AM Nov. 11, 2005 PT
Two scientists say they have come up with a way to make hydrogen fuel
cheap enough to compete with gasoline, by combining nuclear and wind
power.
In the system envisioned by Alistair Miller and Romney Duffey of Atomic
Energy of Canada, nuclear power plants would be paired with wind
turbines to power electrolysis cells, which make hydrogen by passing an
electric current through water.
Wind on its own is too variable, Miller says, leaving electrolysis
equipment frequently idle and driving up costs. "The economics just
don't work," he says. "It produces very expensive hydrogen."
Pairing it with nuclear would keep the equipment operating closer to
full capacity and bring the cost down, he says. A bonus is that when
the wind is strong and electricity demand is high, excess power can be
sold at a profit to the grid. This means that, unlike traditional
electricity-based hydrogen production, Miller's system actually makes
hydrogen cheaper as the cost of electricity goes up.
Using time-varying electricity price data from Ontario and Alberta,
Miller and Duffey calculate that their system can produce hydrogen at
$2 per kilogram, easily meeting the U.S. Department of Energy's goal of
$2 to $3 per kilogram by 2015. One kilogram of hydrogen is considered
equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.
Miller and Duffey recently presented their system, which they call
NuWind, at the 2005 Canadian Chemical Engineering Conference in
Toronto.
Other hydrogen advocates aren't thrilled about the idea of building
nuclear power plants to produce hydrogen, however.
"The nuclear guys are always trying to come up with arguments to make
their industry more green," says Daniel Sperling, co-director of the
Hydrogen Pathways Program at the University of California at Davis.
"Nuclear's got all kinds of challenges." Concerns raised frequently
include nuclear waste disposal, potential terrorist attacks on reactors
and nuclear weapons proliferation.
Miller argues that radiation from nuclear power plants is tiny compared
to what people get from natural sources and that there are cheaper
paths to nuclear proliferation than building a nuclear power plant. He
also maintains that the risks of terrorist attacks are overblown. "You
can fly a 747 into a nuclear reactor and it's very bad for the 747 but
it won't actually do anything to the meter-thick concrete around the
reactor core," he says.
And given growing concerns about climate change, he says, society can't
afford to dismiss any options for reducing carbon emissions. "We need
all the carbon-free sources we can possibly lay our hands on."
Despite his doubts, Sperling says nuclear shouldn't be dismissed out
of hand for hydrogen production. "I wouldn't see spending money on
nuclear to hydrogen at this point, but we should keep it open as an
option."
Aside from the environmental and security issues, hydrogen from the
nuclear-wind system would have other hurdles to overcome, including the
added costs of distributing the fuel.
"I think it's certainly possible that you can produce hydrogen that's
competitive in price with gasoline and that's produced from a
relatively clean source, if you're including nuclear in that," says
energy market analyst Roberta Gamble of Frost & Sullivan. "The problem
is the transportation of the fuel, the integration into the fuelling
system, and then whether or not it would ever be used."
Gamble is doubtful that fuel-cell cars will catch on among consumers,
especially within the next 10 or 15 years, when the nuclear-wind system
would be most useful. After that, other hydrogen-production
technologies being researched could be ready and might make the
nuclear-wind system obsolete.
Nearly all hydrogen today is obtained from natural gas in a process
called steam methane reforming. But unlike electrolysis, this method
produces carbon dioxide, and is growing more expensive as natural gas
prices rise.
It's not going to happen.....

Nuclear power is a pariah that nobody will license these days primarily
because of the disposal issues.

Electricity generated by any means, wind, solar, nuclear, etc. has a higher
intrinsic value as electricity than as fuel and will be sold as such. To
turn it into a lower value fuel with the attended loss of efficiency is
economic nonsense. Furthermore, it takes more capital equipment and
infrastructure to generate and market as fuel than as electricity.

The volumetric energy density of hydrogen is too low to be used as fuel
except in certain fixed location cases. The costs of transporting it by
pipeline and/or truck are as much as 10 times higher than transporting the
same energy in oil, gasoline, or bio fuel. This hidden cost will be a show
stopper and is rarely talked about by hydrogen mavens.

High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels. That too will prove to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.

You're going to wait along time if you think nuclear-wind hydrogen is going
to save the day. The chances are not good.
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 02:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eldred
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69456,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7
Scientists Offer Hydrogen Fix
02:00 AM Nov. 11, 2005 PT
Two scientists say they have come up with a way to make hydrogen fuel
cheap enough to compete with gasoline, by combining nuclear and wind
power.
In the system envisioned by Alistair Miller and Romney Duffey of Atomic
Energy of Canada, nuclear power plants would be paired with wind
turbines to power electrolysis cells, which make hydrogen by passing an
electric current through water.
Wind on its own is too variable, Miller says, leaving electrolysis
equipment frequently idle and driving up costs. "The economics just
don't work," he says. "It produces very expensive hydrogen."
Pairing it with nuclear would keep the equipment operating closer to
full capacity and bring the cost down, he says. A bonus is that when
the wind is strong and electricity demand is high, excess power can be
sold at a profit to the grid. This means that, unlike traditional
electricity-based hydrogen production, Miller's system actually makes
hydrogen cheaper as the cost of electricity goes up.
Using time-varying electricity price data from Ontario and Alberta,
Miller and Duffey calculate that their system can produce hydrogen at
$2 per kilogram, easily meeting the U.S. Department of Energy's goal of
$2 to $3 per kilogram by 2015. One kilogram of hydrogen is considered
equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.
Miller and Duffey recently presented their system, which they call
NuWind, at the 2005 Canadian Chemical Engineering Conference in
Toronto.
Other hydrogen advocates aren't thrilled about the idea of building
nuclear power plants to produce hydrogen, however.
"The nuclear guys are always trying to come up with arguments to make
their industry more green," says Daniel Sperling, co-director of the
Hydrogen Pathways Program at the University of California at Davis.
"Nuclear's got all kinds of challenges." Concerns raised frequently
include nuclear waste disposal, potential terrorist attacks on reactors
and nuclear weapons proliferation.
Miller argues that radiation from nuclear power plants is tiny compared
to what people get from natural sources and that there are cheaper
paths to nuclear proliferation than building a nuclear power plant. He
also maintains that the risks of terrorist attacks are overblown. "You
can fly a 747 into a nuclear reactor and it's very bad for the 747 but
it won't actually do anything to the meter-thick concrete around the
reactor core," he says.
And given growing concerns about climate change, he says, society can't
afford to dismiss any options for reducing carbon emissions. "We need
all the carbon-free sources we can possibly lay our hands on."
Despite his doubts, Sperling says nuclear shouldn't be dismissed out
of hand for hydrogen production. "I wouldn't see spending money on
nuclear to hydrogen at this point, but we should keep it open as an
option."
Aside from the environmental and security issues, hydrogen from the
nuclear-wind system would have other hurdles to overcome, including the
added costs of distributing the fuel.
"I think it's certainly possible that you can produce hydrogen that's
competitive in price with gasoline and that's produced from a
relatively clean source, if you're including nuclear in that," says
energy market analyst Roberta Gamble of Frost & Sullivan. "The problem
is the transportation of the fuel, the integration into the fuelling
system, and then whether or not it would ever be used."
Gamble is doubtful that fuel-cell cars will catch on among consumers,
especially within the next 10 or 15 years, when the nuclear-wind system
would be most useful. After that, other hydrogen-production
technologies being researched could be ready and might make the
nuclear-wind system obsolete.
Nearly all hydrogen today is obtained from natural gas in a process
called steam methane reforming. But unlike electrolysis, this method
produces carbon dioxide, and is growing more expensive as natural gas
prices rise.
It's not going to happen.....
Nuclear power is a pariah that nobody will license these days primarily
because of the disposal issues.
Electricity generated by any means, wind, solar, nuclear, etc. has a higher
intrinsic value as electricity than as fuel and will be sold as such.
Hydrogen has a HIGHER market value than electricity, reflecting supply
versus demand. The demand for electricity is LOWER than the demand for
H2 tight now, according to all credible theories of economics. At lower
prices, H2 demand MIGHT increase; at higher prices EMF demand MIGHT
decrease. At present the market values H2 at higher dollar valualtion
than EMF. That's the reality. Get used to it. H2 is a MORE VALUABLE
product, just like Lexus is MORE valuable than Corolla even though the
same corporation makes both.

Do TRY to understand prices, supply & demand before lecturing on
economics.
Post by Bob Eldred
To
turn it into a lower value fuel with the attended loss of efficiency is
economic nonsense. Furthermore, it takes more capital equipment and
infrastructure to generate and market as fuel than as electricity.
Says you without a speck of documentation to back up your statements.
Post by Bob Eldred
The volumetric energy density of hydrogen is too low to be used as fuel
except in certain fixed location cases. The costs of transporting it by
pipeline and/or truck are as much as 10 times higher than transporting the
same energy in oil, gasoline, or bio fuel.
Says you, without documentation. So, maybe it might be moved as
lighter-than-air barges. Who knows? Certainly not an ignoramous like
you. You already flunked economics by nor recognizing the higher price
of gold over lead is a signal that the market VALUES it higher.
Post by Bob Eldred
This hidden cost will be a show
stopper and is rarely talked about by hydrogen mavens.
What hidden costs -- are they like the invisible leprechans flying out
of your buttocks, hidden from everybody but those wearing the tinfoil
hats to keep from getting alien thoughts beamed into their heads?
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels. That too will prove to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.
Yup. You lay down all the pinto crispy critters toasted by gasoline
next to all the known death by Hydrogen in all of history, and which
line of corpses is longer?

Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
Post by Bob Eldred
You're going to wait along time if you think nuclear-wind hydrogen is going
to save the day. The chances are not good.
The chances of Bob Eldred having a lucid thought are rarer.
Don Lancaster
2005-11-12 04:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Hydrogen has a HIGHER market value than electricity, reflecting supply
versus demand.
Not possible.
Absolutely GUARANTEED by thermodynamic fundamentals involving exergy.

The thermodynamically reversibly recoverable fraction of an electrical
kilowatthour of energy can be exceptionally high.

The thermodynamically reversibly recoverable fraction of a hydrogen
kilowatthour of energy is much, much lower. Even neglecting the energy
and staggering exergy loss needed to isolate the hydrogen in the first
place.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed explanation.
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: ***@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 05:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Lancaster
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Hydrogen has a HIGHER market value than electricity, reflecting supply
versus demand.
Not possible.
Absolutely GUARANTEED by thermodynamic fundamentals involving exergy.
HYDROGEN costs more than gasoline, as you yourself said many times. The
market has spoken: HYDROGEN has a HIGHER VALUE reflected by price. A
person with a kilogram of HYDROGEN gets more money selling it in
today's market than a person with a gallon of gasoline (roughly same
BTU contents).

The MARKET has spoken. H2 is more valuable for the same reason the
price of GOLD is higher than the price of clods of dirt. People are
willing to PAY MORE for Hydrogen than for gasoline. EXERGY has nothing
to say about it.
Post by Don Lancaster
The thermodynamically reversibly recoverable fraction of an electrical
kilowatthour of energy can be exceptionally high.
No figures provided: pure superstition.
Post by Don Lancaster
The thermodynamically reversibly recoverable fraction of a hydrogen
kilowatthour of energy is much, much lower. Even neglecting the energy
and staggering exergy loss needed to isolate the hydrogen in the first
place.
The MARKET has spoken: Hydrogen has the HIGHER VALUE (reflected in
price) over kilowatts of electricity. If people thought that kilowatts
were the MORE VALUABLE they would be willing to spend more of their
hard-earned money on kilowatts, now wouldn't they? Frankly, there's a
glut of kilowatts on the market, depressing the market price -- but
Wall Street will fix that, won't they?

When kilowatts are as desired as H2 the price will rise to meet H2's
price. For now smart buyers are paying 4.5 times the price of kilowatts
for H2 because they get things from H2 that kilowatts can never
provide. The market is smarter than you are.
Jim Michael
2005-11-12 04:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
I don't know their names, but several people died in the Hindenburg
disaster, which was hydrogen burning. Certainly others have died since then
in industrial accidents, but you're right that many more have died by
gasoline fires (probably since gasoline is ubiquitous and concentrated
hydrogen is not). As to using hydrogen instead of electricity because of
relative costs, we need to remember that we have an existing infra-structure
which reliably delivers electricity practically everywhere, but no such
system exists for hydrogen. And, the conversion of electricity to hydrogen
has to have some ineffeciencies and losses. For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel). If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.

Jim Michael
***@ricochet.com
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 04:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Michael
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
I don't know their names, but several people died in the Hindenburg
disaster, which was hydrogen burning.
NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON DIED BY HYDROGEN BURNS in the Hindenberg Fire.
Diesel fuel from the steering motors spilled on several people. Other
leaped to thier deaths (10 stories high). Some were crushed by the
weight of the machine (where a 747 airplane could park under its
tailsection.

NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON DIED BY HYDROGEN BURNS in the Hindenberg Fire.
Post by Jim Michael
Certainly others have died since then
in industrial accidents, but you're right that many more have died by
gasoline fires
<ignorant blathering snipped>
Post by Jim Michael
For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel).
That is why FUEL CELL cars generate electricity and get three times the
motive power per BTUs than I.C.E.
Post by Jim Michael
If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.
Unless you don't like buying batteries every year @ $5000 per set, and
don't like cars with really long extension cords plugged in. If you
like FREEDOM then H2 is for you.
Don Lancaster
2005-11-12 05:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
That is why FUEL CELL cars generate electricity and get three times the
motive power per BTUs than I.C.E.
An urban lore myth.
Also not even wrong.

Not one fuel cell car available today even remotely approaches ICE
efficiency.

In the dark distant future, fuel cell cars MAY offer a MINOR but
possibly significant efficiency improvement over ICE's.

Except for the fact that ICE efficiency is currently improving faster
than fuel cell efficiency.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: ***@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 05:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Lancaster
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
That is why FUEL CELL cars generate electricity and get three times the
motive power per BTUs than I.C.E.
An urban lore myth.
Also not even wrong.
Not one fuel cell car available today even remotely approaches ICE
efficiency.
In the dark distant future, fuel cell cars MAY offer a MINOR but
possibly significant efficiency improvement over ICE's.
Except for the fact that ICE efficiency is currently improving faster
than fuel cell efficiency.
Not even right.



http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf
Page 5 of 49

One of the biggest challenges of judging hydrogen's potential is how
to compare it fairly and consistently with other energy carriers.
Fossil fuels are traditionally measured in cost, volume, or mass per
unit of energy content.18 That's valid only if the fuels being
compared are all used in similar devices and at similar efficiencies,
so all yield about the same amount of energy service. But that's not
valid for hydrogen. Fuel cells (explained further in Myth #6) are not
subject to the same thermodynamic limits as fuel-driven engines,
because they're electrochemical devices, not heat engines. A hydrogen
fuel-cell car can therefore convert hydrogen energy into motion about
2-3 times as efficiently as a normal car converts gasoline energy
into motion: depending on how it's designed and run, a good fuel-cell
system is about 50-70% efficient, hydrogen-to-electricity,19 while a
typical car engine's efficiency from gasoline to output shaft
averages only about 15-17% efficient.20 (Both systems then incur
further minor losses to drive the wheels.) This means you can drive
several times as far on a gallon-equivalent (in energy content) of
hydrogen in a fuel-cell car as on a gallon of gasoline in an
engine-driven car. Conversely, hydrogen costing several times as much
as gasoline per unit of energy contained can thus cost the same per
mile driven. Since you buy automotive fuel to get miles, not energy,
ignoring such differences in end-use efficiency is a serious
distortion, and accounts for much of the misinformation being published
about hydrogen's high cost. Hydrogen's advantage in cars is
especially large because cars run mainly at low loads, where fuel cells
are most efficient and engines are least efficient.21 (Hydrogen can
also have other economic or functional advantages that go beyond its
efficient use. For example, when hydrogen fuel cells power digital
loads in buildings, hydrogen may yield even greater extra value because
suitably designed arrays of fuel cells can be exceptionally reliable
and can yield the highquality power that computers need.22)

To reinforce this sixth point, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) says
bulk hydrogen made and consumed onsite costs about $0.71/kg. 23
That's equivalent in energy content to $0.72 per gallon of
gasoline.24 But per mile driven - which is the objective - it's
equivalent to about one-third to one-half that price, i.e., to about
$0.24-0.36/gallonequivalent, because of the 2-3-fold greater
efficiency of a hydrogen fuel cell than a gasoline engine in running a
car. Of course, the price of hydrogen delivered into the car's fuel
tank will be much higher. For example, DOE says the delivered price of
industrial liquid hydrogen is about $2.2-3.1/kg. If it could be
delivered into the tank of a car for the same price, it would be
roughly equivalent per mile to $1-a-gallon gasoline. Thus it can cost
several times as much to deliver liquid hydrogen as to produce it.
(Fortunately, as we'll see, gaseous hydrogen can be produced at a
filling station and put into the car for well under $2/kg.) Price also
depends on hydrogen purity. So to assess hydrogen's price or cost or
value or benefit meaningfully, we need to know how it'll be used,
whether it's pure enough for the task, whether it's delivered to
the task, and how much of the desired work it actually does.

Page 10 of 49

Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it's
prohibitively inefficient. Any conversion from one form of energy to
another consumes more useful energy than it yields. If it could do the
opposite, creating energy out of nothing, you could create a
perpetual-motion machine violating the laws of physics. Conversion
losses are unavoidable; the issue is whether they're worth incurring.
If they were intolerable as a matter of principle, as Myth #3 implies,
then we'd have to stop making gasoline from crude oil (~73-91%
efficient from wellhead to retail pump42) and electricity from fossil
fuel (~29-35% efficient from coal at the power plant to retail
meter). Such conversion losses are thus not specific to producing
hydrogen. Hydrogen production is typically about 7243 to 8544 percent
efficient in natural-gas reformers or ~70-75% efficient in
electrolyzers;45 the rest is heat that may also be reusable. (These
efficiency figures are all reduced by 15% because of the way
hydrogen's energy content is normally measured.46) So why incur these
losses to make hydrogen? Because hydrogen's greater end-use
efficiency can more than offset the conversion losses, much as an
electric heat pump or air conditioner can offset fuel-to-electricity
conversion losses by using one unit of electricity to concentrate and
deliver several units of heat. That is, conversion losses and costs are
tolerable if the resulting form of energy is more efficiently or
conveniently usable than the original form, hence justified by its
greater economic value. Making hydrogen can readily achieve this goal.
Crude oil can be more efficiently converted into delivered gasoline
than can natural gas into delivered hydrogen.12 But that's a red
herring: the difference is far more than offset by the hydrogen's
2-3-fold higher efficiency in running a fuel-cell car than
gasoline's in running an enginedriven car. Using Japanese round
numbers from Toyota, 88% of oil at the wellhead ends up as gasoline in
your tank, and then 16% of that gasoline energy reaches the wheels of
your typical modern car, so the well-to-wheels efficiency is 14%. A
gasoline-fueled hybrid-electric car like the 2002 Toyota Prius nearly
doubles the gasoline-to-wheels efficiency from 16% to 30% and the
overall well-to-wheels efficiency from 14% to 26%. But locally
reforming natural gas can deliver 70% of the gas's wellhead energy
into the car's compressed-hydrogen tank. That "meager" conversion
efficiency is then more than offset by an advanced fuel-cell
drivesystem's superior 60% efficiency in converting that hydrogen
energy into traction, for an overall well-towheels efficiency of 42%.
That's three times higher than the normal gasoline-engine car's, or
1.5 times higher than the gasoline-hybrid-electric car's.47 This
helps explain why most automakers see today's gasoline-hybrid cars as
a stepping-stone to their ultimate goal - direct-hydrogen fuel-cell
cars.
s***@hotmail.com
2005-11-12 11:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Does it have to be Hydrogen? What other possible methods of
converting excess wind produced electricity to a usefull, economic and
practical form are possible? Are there other elements/compounds that
can be use instead of Hydrogen? Doesn't seem to be much information or
research in this direction? Maybe we are all on the hydrogen band
wagon for to long and should start looking for other ideas.
G. R. L. Cowan
2005-11-12 17:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Does it have to be Hydrogen?
No, and it won't be.
Post by s***@hotmail.com
What other possible methods of
converting excess wind produced electricity to a usefull, economic and
practical form are possible? Are there other elements/compounds that
can be use instead of Hydrogen? Doesn't seem to be much information or
research in this direction? Maybe we are all on the hydrogen band
wagon for to long and should start looking for other ideas.
I'm long since off it, see below.


--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
Arnold Walker
2005-11-28 21:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Does it have to be Hydrogen? What other possible methods of
converting excess wind produced electricity to a usefull, economic and
practical form are possible? Are there other elements/compounds that
can be use instead of Hydrogen? Doesn't seem to be much information or
research in this direction? Maybe we are all on the hydrogen band
wagon for to long and should start looking for other ideas.
Already happening if you think about it.....electricity does go to chemical
plants and???




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Market Theory
2005-11-15 11:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Sparky @zig-zag.net wrote:
...
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf
Page 5 of 49
...
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it's
prohibitively inefficient.
Never trust a document with numbered myths.

cheers,
--mt.
Arnold Walker
2005-11-28 21:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Market Theory
...
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf
Page 5 of 49
...
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it's
prohibitively inefficient.
Never trust a document with numbered myths.
cheers,
--mt.
Never trusth a plan that needs government support.....instead of being self
supporting.
We have so many of those plans in and out of the energy field like SSI, that
are better
at putting money in a political figures pocket .Than giving a pension plan
or health care.



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Arnold Walker
2005-11-28 21:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Lancaster
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
That is why FUEL CELL cars generate electricity and get three times the
motive power per BTUs than I.C.E.
An urban lore myth.
Also not even wrong.
Not one fuel cell car available today even remotely approaches ICE
efficiency.
In the dark distant future, fuel cell cars MAY offer a MINOR but possibly
significant efficiency improvement over ICE's.
Agreed Don ....steamer,here, guy has seen Westinghouse and GE lightplants
hit 60 to 80% numbers with combined cycle (hybrid ICE/steam).
Regretfully,the doers don't get credit......just the hype hybrids and fuel
cell promisers.
If ,that case was not so.....why don't we see the utility guys running 800MW
fuel cells.
Post by Don Lancaster
Except for the fact that ICE efficiency is currently improving faster than
fuel cell efficiency.
See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
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Arnold Walker
2005-11-28 21:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Jim Michael
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
I don't know their names, but several people died in the Hindenburg
disaster, which was hydrogen burning.
NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON DIED BY HYDROGEN BURNS in the Hindenberg Fire.
Diesel fuel from the steering motors spilled on several people. Other
leaped to thier deaths (10 stories high). Some were crushed by the
weight of the machine (where a 747 airplane could park under its
tailsection.
NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON DIED BY HYDROGEN BURNS in the Hindenberg Fire.
Oh well ,let see your take on the first space shuttle explosion from
hydrogen leak....school teacher and crew burned
on camera in a safe hydrogen flame.
Then we can get into the safety measures required on the Hindeberg. And then
the second shuttle crash from fuel handling ice.
All caught on camera in one degree or another.
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Jim Michael
Certainly others have died since then
in industrial accidents, but you're right that many more have died by
gasoline fires
<ignorant blathering snipped>
Post by Jim Michael
For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel).
That is why FUEL CELL cars generate electricity and get three times the
motive power per BTUs than I.C.E.
Post by Jim Michael
If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.
don't like cars with really long extension cords plugged in. If you
like FREEDOM then H2 is for you.
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Don W
2005-11-12 05:11:39 UTC
Permalink
... And, the conversion of electricity to hydrogen
has to have some ineffeciencies and losses. For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel). If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.
Jim Michael
Not to mention that fuel cells suitable for automotive use are less
efficient at converting hydrogen to electricity than a typical diesel engine
converting diesel fuel to motive force.

Is ricochet.com the same thing as the ricochet.net wireless network of some
years ago?

Don W.
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 05:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don W
... And, the conversion of electricity to hydrogen
has to have some ineffeciencies and losses. For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel). If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.
Jim Michael
Not to mention that fuel cells suitable for automotive use are less
efficient at converting hydrogen to electricity than a typical diesel engine
converting diesel fuel to motive force.
You couldn't back up your claim by citation from any reputable website,
so you didn't. You just bluff that nobody knows better.

I will trust my physicist source over your bonehead bluffs.


http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf
Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it's
prohibitively inefficient.

Any conversion from one form of energy to another consumes more useful
energy than it yields. If it could do the opposite, creating energy out
of nothing, you could create a perpetual-motion machine violating the
laws of physics. Conversion losses are unavoidable; the issue is
whether they're worth incurring. If they were intolerable as a matter
of principle, as Myth #3 implies, then we'd have to stop making
gasoline from crude oil (~73-91% efficient from wellhead to retail
pump42) and electricity from fossil fuel (~29-35% efficient from coal
at the power plant to retail meter). Such conversion losses are thus
not specific to producing hydrogen. Hydrogen production is typically
about 72% to 85% percent efficient in natural-gas reformers or
~70-75% efficient in electrolyzers;45 the rest is heat that may also
be reusable. (These efficiency figures are all reduced by 15% because
of the way hydrogen's energy content is normally measured.46) So why
incur these losses to make hydrogen? Because hydrogen's greater end-use
efficiency can more than offset the conversion losses, much as an
electric heat pump or air conditioner can offset fuel-to-electricity
conversion losses by using one unit of electricity to concentrate and
deliver several units of heat. That is, conversion losses and costs are
tolerable if the resulting form of energy is more efficiently or
conveniently usable than the original form, hence justified by its
greater economic value. Making hydrogen can readily achieve this goal.

Crude oil can be more efficiently converted into delivered gasoline
than can natural gas into delivered hydrogen.12 But that's a red
herring: the difference is far more than offset by the hydrogen's
2-3-fold higher efficiency in running a fuel-cell car than gasoline's
in running an enginedriven car. Using Japanese round numbers from
Toyota, 88% of oil at the wellhead ends up as gasoline in your tank,
and then 16% of that gasoline energy reaches the wheels of your typical
modern car, so the well-to-wheels efficiency is 14%. A gasoline-fueled
hybrid-electric car like the 2002 Toyota Prius nearly doubles the
gasoline-to-wheels efficiency from 16% to 30% and the overall
well-to-wheels efficiency from 14% to 26%. But locally reforming
natural gas can deliver 70% of the gas's wellhead energy into the car's
compressed-hydrogen tank. That "meager" conversion efficiency is then
more than offset by an advanced fuel-cell drivesystem's superior 60%
efficiency in converting that hydrogen energy into traction, for an
overall well-towheels efficiency of 42%. That's three times higher than
the normal gasoline-engine car's, or 1.5 times higher than the
gasoline-hybrid-electric car's.47 This helps explain why most
automakers see today's gasoline-hybrid cars as a stepping-stone to
their ultimate goal - direct-hydrogen fuel-cell cars.

In competitive electricity markets, it may even make good economic
sense to use hydrogen as an electricity storage medium. True, the
overall round-trip efficiency of using electricity to split water,
making hydrogen, storing it, and then converting it back into
electricity in a fuel cell is relatively low at about 45% (after 25%
electrolyzer losses and 40% fuel-cell losses) plus any byproduct heat
recaptured from both units for space-conditioning or water heating. But
this can still be worthwhile because it uses power from an efficient
baseload plant (perhaps even a combinedcycle plant converting 50-60%
of its fuel to electricity) to displace a very inefficient peaking
power plant (a simple-cycle gas turbine or engine-generator, often only
15-20% efficient). This peak-shaving value is reflected in the
marketplace. When the cost of peak power for the top 50-150 hours a
year is $600-900/MWh, typically 30-40 times the cost of baseload
power (~$20/ MWh), the economics of storage become quite interesting.
Distributed generation provides not only energy and peak capacity, but
also ancillary services and deferral of grid upgrades. Hydrogen storage
can also save power-plant fuel by permitting more flexible operation of
the utility system with fuller utilization of intermittent sources like
wind. Once all the distributed benefits are accounted for, using
hydrogen for peak storage may be worthwhile, particularly in cities
with transmission constraints (such as Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Chicago, New York City, and Long Island). Such applications may be able
to justify capital costs upwards of $4,000/kW. Another attractive use
of large-scale hydrogen storage would be in places like New Zealand or
Brazil, whose hydroelectric systems have too little storage (12 weeks
in NZ) to provide resilience against drought - but whose snowmelt or
rainy seasons provide cheap surplus hydropower that could be stored as
hydrogen, even in old gas-fields.

Many people assume that fuel makes more electricity if burned in an
efficient power plant than if converted into hydrogen and then used in
a fuel cell. This is not necessarily true. For example, using gasified
biomass in a high-temperature molten-carbonate fuel cell, which needs
no reformer, looks economically promising, even though reforming the
biomass into hydrogen would be only about 60-65% efficient - worse
than for reforming natural gas.48
Arnold Walker
2005-11-28 22:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Don W
... And, the conversion of electricity to hydrogen
has to have some ineffeciencies and losses. For transportation, electric
motors are much more effecient that internal combustion engines (which could
use hydrogen as a fuel). If the hydrogen is for use in a fuel cell, then
the final product is electricity, and it seems silly to convert electricity
to hydrogen and then back to electricity.
Jim Michael
Not to mention that fuel cells suitable for automotive use are less
efficient at converting hydrogen to electricity than a typical diesel engine
converting diesel fuel to motive force.
You couldn't back up your claim by citation from any reputable website,
so you didn't. You just bluff that nobody knows better.
I will trust my physicist source over your bonehead bluffs.
http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf
Myth #3. Making hydrogen uses more energy than it yields, so it's
prohibitively inefficient.
Any conversion from one form of energy to another consumes more useful
energy than it yields. If it could do the opposite, creating energy out
of nothing, you could create a perpetual-motion machine violating the
laws of physics. Conversion losses are unavoidable; the issue is
whether they're worth incurring. If they were intolerable as a matter
of principle, as Myth #3 implies, then we'd have to stop making
gasoline from crude oil (~73-91% efficient from wellhead to retail
pump42) and electricity from fossil fuel (~29-35% efficient from coal
at the power plant to retail meter). Such conversion losses are thus
not specific to producing hydrogen. Hydrogen production is typically
about 72% to 85% percent efficient in natural-gas reformers or
~70-75% efficient in electrolyzers;45 the rest is heat that may also
be reusable. (These efficiency figures are all reduced by 15% because
of the way hydrogen's energy content is normally measured.46) So why
incur these losses to make hydrogen?
Because you are making transformers at Elliot Electric requiring metal
purity.
With transformer pricing covering the extra expense of reforming hydrogen
for
the laminate baking ovens.Not powering hydrogen fuel cells.....that greater
value
of lower transformer losses offsets the high expense of NG reforming to
hydrogen.
Or you are electroplating locomotive cylinders and computer cases for Ipod
and
other Apple products at the Chromuim Corp..
Because once agian the rf shielding is of higher value than
elctroplating.....inspite of it
also requiring Chromic acid recovery equipment that is more expense than the
plating machinery.
(Makes for happier employees when they know BOTH thier sinews and the paint
on the car outside
will last more than a couple of years........the pine trees ,for 1/2 mile
around the plant, are green again
also, after Texas stepped on them about the emissions.)

Because hydrogen's greater end-use
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
efficiency can more than offset the conversion losses, much as an
electric heat pump or air conditioner can offset fuel-to-electricity
conversion losses by using one unit of electricity to concentrate and
deliver several units of heat. That is, conversion losses and costs are
tolerable if the resulting form of energy is more efficiently or
conveniently usable than the original form, hence justified by its
greater economic value. Making hydrogen can readily achieve this goal.
Crude oil can be more efficiently converted into delivered gasoline
than can natural gas into delivered hydrogen.12 But that's a red
herring: the difference is far more than offset by the hydrogen's
2-3-fold higher efficiency in running a fuel-cell car than gasoline's
in running an enginedriven car. Using Japanese round numbers from
Toyota, 88% of oil at the wellhead ends up as gasoline in your tank,
and then 16% of that gasoline energy reaches the wheels of your typical
modern car, so the well-to-wheels efficiency is 14%. A gasoline-fueled
hybrid-electric car like the 2002 Toyota Prius nearly doubles the
gasoline-to-wheels efficiency from 16% to 30% and the overall
well-to-wheels efficiency from 14% to 26%. But locally reforming
natural gas can deliver 70% of the gas's wellhead energy into the car's
compressed-hydrogen tank. That "meager" conversion efficiency is then
more than offset by an advanced fuel-cell drivesystem's superior 60%
efficiency in converting that hydrogen energy into traction, for an
overall well-towheels efficiency of 42%. That's three times higher than
the normal gasoline-engine car's, or 1.5 times higher than the
gasoline-hybrid-electric car's.47 This helps explain why most
automakers see today's gasoline-hybrid cars as a stepping-stone to
their ultimate goal - direct-hydrogen fuel-cell cars.
In competitive electricity markets, it may even make good economic
sense to use hydrogen as an electricity storage medium. True, the
overall round-trip efficiency of using electricity to split water,
making hydrogen, storing it, and then converting it back into
electricity in a fuel cell is relatively low at about 45% (after 25%
electrolyzer losses and 40% fuel-cell losses) plus any byproduct heat
recaptured from both units for space-conditioning or water heating. But
this can still be worthwhile because it uses power from an efficient
baseload plant (perhaps even a combinedcycle plant converting 50-60%
of its fuel to electricity) to displace a very inefficient peaking
power plant (a simple-cycle gas turbine or engine-generator, often only
15-20% efficient). This peak-shaving value is reflected in the
marketplace. When the cost of peak power for the top 50-150 hours a
year is $600-900/MWh, typically 30-40 times the cost of baseload
power (~$20/ MWh), the economics of storage become quite interesting.
Distributed generation provides not only energy and peak capacity, but
also ancillary services and deferral of grid upgrades. Hydrogen storage
can also save power-plant fuel by permitting more flexible operation of
the utility system with fuller utilization of intermittent sources like
wind. Once all the distributed benefits are accounted for, using
hydrogen for peak storage may be worthwhile, particularly in cities
with transmission constraints (such as Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Chicago, New York City, and Long Island). Such applications may be able
to justify capital costs upwards of $4,000/kW. Another attractive use
of large-scale hydrogen storage would be in places like New Zealand or
Brazil, whose hydroelectric systems have too little storage (12 weeks
in NZ) to provide resilience against drought - but whose snowmelt or
rainy seasons provide cheap surplus hydropower that could be stored as
hydrogen, even in old gas-fields.
Many people assume that fuel makes more electricity if burned in an
efficient power plant than if converted into hydrogen and then used in
a fuel cell. This is not necessarily true. For example, using gasified
biomass in a high-temperature molten-carbonate fuel cell, which needs
no reformer, looks economically promising, even though reforming the
biomass into hydrogen would be only about 60-65% efficient - worse
than for reforming natural gas.48
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Bob Eldred
2005-11-12 04:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Hydrogen has a HIGHER market value than electricity, reflecting supply
versus demand. The demand for electricity is LOWER than the demand for
H2 tight now, according to all credible theories of economics. At lower
prices, H2 demand MIGHT increase; at higher prices EMF demand MIGHT
decrease. At present the market values H2 at higher dollar valualtion
than EMF. That's the reality. Get used to it. H2 is a MORE VALUABLE
product, just like Lexus is MORE valuable than Corolla even though the
same corporation makes both.
Do TRY to understand prices, supply & demand before lecturing on
economics.
Says you without a speck of documentation to back up your statements.
Says you, without documentation. So, maybe it might be moved as
lighter-than-air barges. Who knows? Certainly not an ignoramous like
you. You already flunked economics by nor recognizing the higher price
of gold over lead is a signal that the market VALUES it higher.
What hidden costs -- are they like the invisible leprechans flying out
of your buttocks, hidden from everybody but those wearing the tinfoil
hats to keep from getting alien thoughts beamed into their heads?
Yup. You lay down all the pinto crispy critters toasted by gasoline
next to all the known death by Hydrogen in all of history, and which
line of corpses is longer?
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
The chances of Bob Eldred having a lucid thought are rarer.
Nice rant! It says a lot more about you than about me...Keep it up your
arguments are very convincing and will win a large following and a lot of
praise.
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-12 05:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eldred
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Hydrogen has a HIGHER market value than electricity, reflecting supply
versus demand. The demand for electricity is LOWER than the demand for
H2 tight now, according to all credible theories of economics. At lower
prices, H2 demand MIGHT increase; at higher prices EMF demand MIGHT
decrease. At present the market values H2 at higher dollar valualtion
than EMF. That's the reality. Get used to it. H2 is a MORE VALUABLE
product, just like Lexus is MORE valuable than Corolla even though the
same corporation makes both.
Do TRY to understand prices, supply & demand before lecturing on
economics.
Says you without a speck of documentation to back up your statements.
Says you, without documentation. So, maybe it might be moved as
lighter-than-air barges. Who knows? Certainly not an ignoramous like
you. You already flunked economics by nor recognizing the higher price
of gold over lead is a signal that the market VALUES it higher.
What hidden costs -- are they like the invisible leprechans flying out
of your buttocks, hidden from everybody but those wearing the tinfoil
hats to keep from getting alien thoughts beamed into their heads?
Yup. You lay down all the pinto crispy critters toasted by gasoline
next to all the known death by Hydrogen in all of history, and which
line of corpses is longer?
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
The chances of Bob Eldred having a lucid thought are rarer.
Nice rant! It says a lot more about you than about me...Keep it up your
arguments are very convincing and will win a large following and a lot of
praise.
Awww, you are just a sore-loser because you can't find one news item
anywhere of anybody ever dying from Hydrogen. Not one news item.

You are a sore loser because you tried to bluff a lot a crap you made
up (or read in Lancaster's Enema-Fun.pdf webpage that made a monkey out
of you for believing him.

You spouted out a whole bunch of made-up facts, unable to back up a
single one of them with citations to credible reputable websites. You
got called on your bluff. Loser! Loser! Loser!
K. Jones
2005-11-15 22:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Awww, you are just a sore-loser because you can't find one news item
anywhere of anybody ever dying from Hydrogen. Not one news item.
You are a sore loser because you tried to bluff a lot a crap you made
up (or read in Lancaster's Enema-Fun.pdf webpage that made a monkey out
of you for believing him.
You spouted out a whole bunch of made-up facts, unable to back up a
single one of them with citations to credible reputable websites. You
got called on your bluff. Loser! Loser! Loser!
Care to try again, Sparky??

Power plant blast kills 2, injures 49 others, 3 critically
http://www.firehouse.com/news/99/4/8_APblast.html

shuttle accident
http://www.mahal.org/article.php?articleID=3&page=1

pickup truck with hydrogen bottles
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2002/020917b.htm

Windtunnel accident kills 1, injures another
http://herald.kaist.ac.kr/news/0306n3.html

Teacher, lab assistant +3 students hurt performing hydrogen experiment
http://cd.ed.gov.hk/sci/laboratory/SAFETY/HYDROGEN.PDF

31. Richmond, CA, USA 10.04. 1989 hydrogen f - - 118,400,000 refinery (fire)
27. Grange-mouth, UK 22.03. 1987 hydrogen f - - 111,200,000 separator vessel
(fire)

Hydrogen explosion in Japanese nuclear plant shuts two units down
http://cnic.jp/english/news/misc/hamaoka_eccs7.html

Hydrogen evolved from torpedeo sinks Kursk
http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/incidents/kursk/18468.html

10/19/1989 Hydrogen Explosion in Spanish Nuclear Plant Worst Accident Since
Chernobyl

VANDELLOS 1, TARRATOGA, SPAIN Fire occurred in this graphite moderated
reactor owned by the French Spanish Consortium Hifrensa, a partner of
Electricite de France (EdF), when for reasons not yet known one turbine
stopped suddenly. The weight of the machine (5 tons) then proceeded to heat
up the lubrication oil which decomposed and lost hydrogen. The hydrogen
exploded and the turbine caught fire. Because the plant has no fire fighting
facilities fire fighters came from as far as 100 km away. The fire continued
for four hours. Because the fire fighters had not been given appropriate
training or equipment (as they were normal fire fighters and not members of
PENTA (Spain's nuclear emergency plant), they piled one calamity on top of
another. For instance because they did not understand the situation they
used water on electrical systems instead of foam. The basement flooded and
Carlos Fernadez, the planter director explained that the big smoke coming
from the plant was due to the burning of electric insulators. The plant has
a history of overheating and corrosion problems. After Chernobyl the
authorities (CSN) had ordered five modifications but only two were made,
partially because of the high costs. According to El Pais the International
Atomic Energy Agency said this was the worst accident in a nuclear
installation since Chernobyl. However reports received by WISE Tarratoga
state that IAEA is now denying this. Spain's Commission for nuclear energy
CSN has considered the fire to be the worst ever in a Spanish nuclear power
plant. The prototype of this plant, the St. Laurent de Eaux in France, was
also the site for the worst French nuclear power accident on the 13th March
1989. (WISE 13/11/89, El pais (Spain) 22, 24, 25, 27, and 28 Oct. 89.)

7/14/1981 Hydrogen Gas Explosion at San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant -
W.I.S.E. Vol.3 No.4 p.18

SAN ONOFRE, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A. A fire at the San Onofre nuclear plant in
California (U.S.A.) that occurred during routine testing, knocked out one of
the power plant's two back-up diesel generators. The plant was shut down for
several weeks beginning 17th July. One month previously, the facility was
returned to service after a 14 month shutdown for $67 million in repairs to
6,000 leaky and corroded tubes in three steam generators. An accidental
leak of gasses in a holding tank of the San Onofre nuclear plant caused an
explosion - which bent the bolts of an inspection hatch on the tank,
allowing radioactive gasses in the tank to escape into a radioactive waste
room. From there, the radioactive material was released into the atmosphere.

12/1/1977 Two Hydrogen/Oxygen Explosions at Millstone Nuclear Power
Station

MILLSTONE, CONNECTICUT, U.S.A. Two hydrogen/oxygen explosions in the waste
radioactive gas stream at Millstone Nuclear Power Station, Waterford,
Connecticut, U.S.A. Chimney door blew off. One worker slightly injured and
helpers contaminated with radioactivity. Reactor completely shut down.
(Parliamentary Legislative Research Service paper, Parliament Library,
Canberra)

1977 Incompetence Results in Hydrogen Explosion Spewing
Radioactive Waste - WISE

The Dounreay 15MW fast-breeder reactor started operations in 1959. It was
the first reactor designed to generate electricity and "breed" its own fuel
at the same time. Scientists of the era promised home electric bills as low
as one penny a year... The 220 feet (75 meter) deep shaft that must be
cleaned was dug to remove rock carved out during construction of a low-level
waste effluent pipe which runs into the Atlantic Ocean. In 1959 managers
plugged the bottom and began using it as a waste repository. Over the next
18 years at least 700 cubic meters of a deadly cocktail that included highly
enriched uranium and plutonium was secretly sunk in the shaft. It is not
known exactly what was dumped in the shaft between 1959 and 1977, as no
proper records were kept. Safety was so lax that waste was carried across
the site in open-top cardboard boxes or empty paint tins before being
dropped into the water at the bottom of the shaft. If containers did not
sink, workers shot holes in them with air pistols. The dumping stopped in
1977 after a major accident. Two elements, sodium and potassium coolant
reacted with the water and generated so much hydrogen that the mix exploded,
blowing off the top of the shaft and scattering radioactive particles over
the surrounding beaches. Then-director Clifford Blumheld assured the public
it was "a low intensity bang" with insignificant fall-out. However later
investigations revealed radiation levels were six times higher than Dounreay
had admitted.

10/7/62 Flash hydrogen fire in nuclear plant containment tanks,
McMurdo Sound, Antarctica

("From under the Rug" F.O.E. La Trobe
Univerhttp://ncsp.tamu.edu/reports/CCOHS/record1469.htmsity Vic.)
DATE OF ACCIDENT : 1984-04-20
PLACE OF ACCIDENT: Polysar Ltd., Vidal Street, Sarnia
BRIEF CAUSE OF DEATH: Multiple injuries to lungs and other areas of both
bodies.
BRIEF MANNER OF DEATH: Due to explosion of hydrogen cloud that caused shock
wave injuries.
ACCIDENT DESCRIPTION:
These two employees of Polysar Corporation were engaged in the start-up
of the Litol Unit after it had been shutdown for its six month
maintenance inspection. During the start-up, hydrogen gas was gradually
built up to over 600 pounds per square inch in the system when the
gasket sealing on an eighteen inch manway cover blew out allowed several
kilograms of hydrogen to escape which resulted in an explosion, killing
the two men and causing extensive damage.


http://www.ch2bc.org/bulletin/bulletin_1993.htm

http://earthsci.org/teacher/basicgeol/nuclear/nuclear.html

http://www.jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/Issues/2003/Jul/abs743_1.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nukenet/message/3514

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/415-6/4120.html

From the site
:http://www.uneptie.org/pc/apell/disasters/lists/disasterloc.html
Explosion 1988 15.06 Italy, Genoa Hydrogen 3 dead 2 injured 15 000 evacuated
Explosion 1991 14.02 Korea, Daesan Hydrogen gas 2 injured
Leakage (refinery) 1992 08.01 USA, Wilmington* Hydrocarbon / hydrogen 16
injured
Leakage and explosion 1992 16.01 Japan, Sodegaura* Hydrogen 10 dead 7
injured

www.slac.stanford.edu/esh/updates/v11-0696.pdf

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2003/08/22/165920.html

http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/offshore/safety/safealt/sa_176.html

http://www.grs.de/en/press_and_news/echo_detail.html?nd_ref=544

http://www.crhf.org.uk/incident03.html

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2002/01/26reporttracesmot.html

http://www.detrick.army.mil/detrick/bulletin/safety/work/batteryexplosion.cfm?select=safety

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1994/in94053.html

http://static.elibrary.com/r/reutersbusinessreport/april081999/focusonedead50hurtinfloridautilityexplosion/

www.dne.bnl.gov/etd/csc/1996/mar96.html

www.hawaii.edu/ehso/lab/ORExplosion.pdf

http://www.minesafe.org/minesafe_news/1068595019829.html

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FVP/1998_Oct_26/53148161/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.dmm.org.uk/reports/9614-07.htm

http://www.acusafe.com/Newsletter/Stories/0700News-MonthlyIncidents.htm

April 3 - Ormond Beach, FL: A hydrogen gas explosion blew the lid off a
heavy container at a heat treatment and brazing plant, crushing one worker's
hand.

http://failure-analysis-consultant.com/case_html/Refinery-Hydrogen-Fire.html
Tony Wesley
2005-11-12 13:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
John Douglas McLean
Kenneth James George
Major Matheson
Michael Rutt
Don Lancaster
2005-11-12 15:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Wesley
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Name one person ever, anywhere, killed by hydrogen -- that ought to be
easy, because you claim there are so many.
John Douglas McLean
Kenneth James George
Major Matheson
Michael Rutt
And, of course, a near legendary SEH poster just barely missed.
While trying for the X prize and a Darwin Award simultaneously.

And, of course, since there is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline
than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen, ALL gasoline fatalaties
are clearly hydrogen fatalities.
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: ***@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
l***@atlantic.net
2005-11-12 15:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Lancaster
And, of course, since there is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline
than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen, ALL gasoline fatalaties
are clearly hydrogen fatalities.
Lancaster is spinning so fast, he's making me dizzy.
Dave Gower
2005-11-13 14:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels. That too will prove to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles. But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel. While hydrogen may be difficult to use in personal transportation, it
may be more practical in larger vehicles, particularly in congested urban
environments. Delivery trucks, buses and subway trains may be examples.
Hydrogen fuel cells may first come into their own as the power component of
heavy urban hybrid vehicles.

Additionally, there IS a method of storing and transporting hydrogen as a
vehicle fuel which is completely practical and in fact is being done in
hundreds of thousands of vehicles at this very moment. That is to combine
use one carbon atom to lock up four hydrogen atoms, otherwise known as
methane. The carbon is widely available as waste product throughout all
modern economies. To make that really economical we need a good fuel cell
technology that can burn the carbon atom without contaminating the internals
of the fuel cell, something that is being worked on.

It's fine to objectively examine the technical problems of new technologies,
but it seems to me that opposition to hydrogen has become something of a
religion to some people around here.
G. R. L. Cowan
2005-11-13 15:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Gower
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels. That too will prove to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles. But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel.
When might the right time to do that be?

If prototypes were to demonstrate 300-km range,
plus the ability to refuel from the existing fleet
of liquid-hydrogen tanker trucks,
and the market were then to ignore them for 20 years,
would that be soon enough?
Post by Dave Gower
It's fine to objectively examine the technical problems of new technologies,
but it seems to me that opposition to hydrogen has become something of a
religion to some people around here.
You must name these false heretics,
so that we can lead them into the truth,
by such merciful means as may be necessary --
for no cruelty is as great as leaving them in darkness.


--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
Dave Gower
2005-11-13 17:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
I don't consider myself as ever having been a "hydrogen fan", because it is
difficult and expensive to produce and handle. I think that the key to
getting away from dependence on fossil fuels is to use the wide variety of
energy sources that are all around us (tailored to what makes the best local
technical and economic sense). Hydrogen may be a part of that. All I'm
trying to promote is having an open mind. My guess is that what we don't
currently know on this matter vastly exceeds what we do. That's the history
of technology.
G. R. L. Cowan
2005-11-13 18:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Gower
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
I don't consider myself as ever having been a "hydrogen fan", because it is
difficult and expensive to produce and handle. I think that the key to
getting away from dependence on fossil fuels is to use the wide variety of
energy sources that are all around us (tailored to what makes the best local
technical and economic sense). Hydrogen may be a part of that. All I'm
trying to promote is having an open mind. My guess is that what we don't
currently know on this matter vastly exceeds what we do. That's the history
of technology.
But you snipped, and did not answer,
Post by Dave Gower
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
Post by Dave Gower
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel.
When might the right time to do that be?
If prototypes were to demonstrate 300-km range,
plus the ability to refuel from the existing fleet
of liquid-hydrogen tanker trucks,
and the market were then to ignore them for 20 years,
would that be soon enough?
Seems like a yes-or-no sort of question, to me anyway.

(Or you could supply the number of years that,
in your opinion, would be enough, if it is significantly
different from 20.)


--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
Dave Gower
2005-11-14 13:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
(Or you could supply the number of years that,
in your opinion, would be enough, if it is significantly
different from 20.)
No, Graham, I'm not falling into your little debating trap.
Don W
2005-11-14 17:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Gower
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
(Or you could supply the number of years that,
in your opinion, would be enough, if it is significantly
different from 20.)
No, Graham, I'm not falling into your little debating trap.
Good thinking -- those little debating traps can really make a person look
foolish if they have no sound basis to support their position.

Don W.
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-13 22:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Gower
Post by G. R. L. Cowan
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
I don't consider myself as ever having been a "hydrogen fan", because it is
difficult and expensive to produce and handle. I think that the key to
getting away from dependence on fossil fuels is to use the wide variety of
energy sources that are all around us (tailored to what makes the best local
technical and economic sense). Hydrogen may be a part of that. All I'm
trying to promote is having an open mind. My guess is that what we don't
currently know on this matter vastly exceeds what we do. That's the history
of technology.
Your ignorance is fixable, but only by you doing "due diligence" and
only posting what you have verified to be true.

Hydrogen soared in importance in 1917 with the adaptation of the
Haber-Bosch process for making explosives from ammonia from Nitrogen in
the air at temperatures of 450°C (842°F) and pressures of 200
atmospheres (2900. psi).

http://www.answers.com/topic/haber-process
Haber process (hä'bər) , commercial process for the synthesis of
ammonia, NH3. Pure hydrogen and nitrogen gases are mixed in the
appropriate proportion, heated to between 450°C and 600°C, compressed
to about 1,000 atmospheres pressure, and passed over a catalyst. The
reaction is 3H2+N2↔ 2NH3+heat. The ammonia gas is liquefied by rapid
cooling; unreacted nitrogen and hydrogen are returned to the reaction
chamber. This process, developed by Fritz Haber in 1909, was the first
commercially important high-pressure chemical process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
... There are three ways to convert N2 into a more chemically-reactive
form:
2. Technical N-fixation: in the Haber-Bosch process N2 is converted
together with hydrogen gas (H2) into ammonia (NH3).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber-Bosch
... Its original adoption as a military necessity notwithstanding, the
Haber process now produces about half of all the nitrogen used in
agriculture as fertilizer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate
... The chemical compound ammonium nitrate, the nitrate of ammonia with
chemical formula NH4NO3, is commonly used in agriculture as a
high-nitrogen fertilizer.


That is HALF of the H2 produced every second (37.5 TONNES), HALF of the
H2 produced every minute (2,750 TONNES), is produced at temperatures
and pressures that make you poop your girlie-man pants. This has been
going on since 1917, despite all the intervening lies about H2.

I might point out that 3000 psi is common in auto brake lines, and
450°C temperatures are commonly found inside the combustion chambers
of those same cars. RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, A CAR IS COMING!!!!


THAT'S THE HISTORY OF TECHNOLOGY that DavidGower, girlie-man with
stinking drawers, is afraid to learn about.
Dave Gower
2005-11-14 13:01:56 UTC
Permalink
...Your ignorance is fixable, but only by you doing "due diligence" and
only posting what you have verified to be true.

Your ego is fixable too.
Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
2005-11-14 19:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
...Your ignorance is fixable, but only by you doing "due diligence" and
only posting what you have verified to be true.
Your ego is fixable too.
Ohhh, bring it on. Bring it ON!!!
Sparky @zig-zag.net
2005-11-13 21:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Gower
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
"Bob Eldred" is a clumbsy liar who hates Hydrogen for reasons
unexplained. Hydrogen is produced in large quantities around the world.
Just the ELECTROLYSIS method alone produces 3 tonnes ever second of
every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of
every year. That is only 4% of the total, so that every second 75
tonnes of H2 is being produced and consumed around the globe. with
4,500 TONNES of H2 every minute, there should be some news reports of
hydrogen accidents and deaths on a regular basis.

Out of 40,000,000,000 webpages google.com search engine only returns
these:
http://tinyurl.com/92nqt
Results 1 - 100 of about 599 for Deaths by "Hydrogen Explosion".

By tediously going through the list, only the Space Shuttle Challenger
explosion can be found which actually applies to a "Hydrogen Explosion"
search term. Most of the rest are scare fantasies speculation on H2
explosions or most commonly the two nuke plants that produced H2
explosions due to failures on the part of the nukes: Chernobyl and
Three Mile Island.

75 TONNES per second, 4,500 TONNES per minute, 270,000 TONNES per
hour... Where are the records of deaths and disasters?????

There were more deaths by carbon-monoxide fumes from home-generators
used after this summer's hurricanes than all the deaths by Hydrogen
fires and explosions in all of history.

75 TONNES H2 per second, 4,500 TONNES H2 per minute, 270,000 TONNES H2
per hour... Where are the records of deaths and disasters?????

So, we have established that "Bob Eldred" (probably a fake name used by
a paid PR company flack to badmouth hydrogen) is a liar and needs no
further attention or engagement in discussion.
Post by Dave Gower
Post by Bob Eldred
That too will prove
to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles
There is nothing OBVIOUSLY TRUE about Eldred's lies, nor your agreement
with them

75 TONNES per second, 4,500 TONNES per minute, 270,000 TONNES per
hour... Where are the records of deaths and disasters?????

Show these dangers or shut up, liar.

The numbers used for compressed gases in tanks for mobil fuel is lower
than astronauts strap on their backs to take spacewalks. No explosive
decompression accidents are recorded for EVAs.

The brake lines in cars are rated at 3000 psi, and in trucks to 5000
psi. There are no reports of sudden explosive failures of brakelines
and power steering out of the hundreds of millions of vehicles on the
highways.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the 2,000,000 bursting strength of
carbon-fibers, selling for $3.44 per square foot at retail pricing
lately. (Price varies according to oil pricing -- these prices were
down to $1/sq.ft earlier this year.)

Hydrogen tanks that don't break under .30 caliber military rifle fire
have passed safety tests pressurized to 10,000 psi -- something you
cannot claim for any gasoline tank made of steel at ordinary air
pressure; bullets go right through steel gas tanks.
Post by Dave Gower
But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
It's been done. Hydrogen cars, trucks and buses are on the highways
already -- some for since over 20 years ago. Chances are that a H2
vehicle has been in every big city in the USA at some point in time.
Post by Dave Gower
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel.
How generous of you, since you are powerless to stop it anyway.

<Oil industry spam snipped>
G. R. L. Cowan
2005-11-13 21:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
[another poster] is a clumbsy liar ...
I can see why you might look down on such a person,
but your high opinion of your own skills in that department
does not seem warranted.

ncsp.tamu.edu/reports/CCOHS/record1469.htm



--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
K. Jones
2005-11-15 23:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
"Bob Eldred" is a clumbsy liar who hates Hydrogen for reasons
unexplained. Hydrogen is produced in large quantities around the world.
Just the ELECTROLYSIS method alone produces 3 tonnes ever second of
every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of
every year. That is only 4% of the total, so that every second 75
tonnes of H2 is being produced and consumed around the globe. with
4,500 TONNES of H2 every minute, there should be some news reports of
hydrogen accidents and deaths on a regular basis.
Out of 40,000,000,000 webpages google.com search engine only returns
http://tinyurl.com/92nqt
Results 1 - 100 of about 599 for Deaths by "Hydrogen Explosion".
By tediously going through the list, only the Space Shuttle Challenger
explosion can be found which actually applies to a "Hydrogen Explosion"
search term. Most of the rest are scare fantasies speculation on H2
explosions or most commonly the two nuke plants that produced H2
explosions due to failures on the part of the nukes: Chernobyl and
Three Mile Island.
There are too frequent hydrogen explosions in non-nuclear power plants.
Large quantities of hydrogen is used in the generators for cooling (hydrogen
provides low windage losses)
Seal oil systems fail, bad purges in generators/dryers, etc.

Mebbe you could read/study a little more before you preach.

K. Jones
Science Cop
2005-11-16 02:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to
ever
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
"Bob Eldred" is a clumbsy liar who hates Hydrogen for reasons
unexplained. Hydrogen is produced in large quantities around the world.
Just the ELECTROLYSIS method alone produces 3 tonnes ever second of
every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of
every year. That is only 4% of the total, so that every second 75
tonnes of H2 is being produced and consumed around the globe. with
4,500 TONNES of H2 every minute, there should be some news reports of
hydrogen accidents and deaths on a regular basis.
Out of 40,000,000,000 webpages google.com search engine only returns
http://tinyurl.com/92nqt
Results 1 - 100 of about 599 for Deaths by "Hydrogen Explosion".
By tediously going through the list, only the Space Shuttle Challenger
explosion can be found which actually applies to a "Hydrogen Explosion"
search term. Most of the rest are scare fantasies speculation on H2
explosions or most commonly the two nuke plants that produced H2
explosions due to failures on the part of the nukes: Chernobyl and
Three Mile Island.
There are too frequent hydrogen explosions in non-nuclear power plants.
Large quantities of hydrogen is used in the generators for cooling (hydrogen
provides low windage losses)
Seal oil systems fail, bad purges in generators/dryers, etc.
Mebbe you could read/study a little more before you preach.
K. Jones
Gee, then it wouldn't take you more than a few seconds to find these
"hydrogen Explosions" on the google search engine??? I looked and they
weren't there, but you go look and find some real cases that match
numbers of people who died from CO poisoning from gasoline powered
generator misuse after the recent hurricanes. Nobody ever died
breathing H2O fumes from burning Hydrogen.

Go find some of these many examples of Hydrogen mishaps, liar.
K. Jones
2005-11-18 18:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to
ever
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
"Bob Eldred" is a clumbsy liar who hates Hydrogen for reasons
unexplained. Hydrogen is produced in large quantities around the world.
Just the ELECTROLYSIS method alone produces 3 tonnes ever second of
every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of
every year. That is only 4% of the total, so that every second 75
tonnes of H2 is being produced and consumed around the globe. with
4,500 TONNES of H2 every minute, there should be some news reports of
hydrogen accidents and deaths on a regular basis.
Out of 40,000,000,000 webpages google.com search engine only returns
http://tinyurl.com/92nqt
Results 1 - 100 of about 599 for Deaths by "Hydrogen Explosion".
By tediously going through the list, only the Space Shuttle Challenger
explosion can be found which actually applies to a "Hydrogen Explosion"
search term. Most of the rest are scare fantasies speculation on H2
explosions or most commonly the two nuke plants that produced H2
explosions due to failures on the part of the nukes: Chernobyl and
Three Mile Island.
There are too frequent hydrogen explosions in non-nuclear power plants.
Large quantities of hydrogen is used in the generators for cooling (hydrogen
provides low windage losses)
Seal oil systems fail, bad purges in generators/dryers, etc.
Mebbe you could read/study a little more before you preach.
K. Jones
Gee, then it wouldn't take you more than a few seconds to find these
"hydrogen Explosions" on the google search engine??? I looked and they
weren't there, but you go look and find some real cases that match
numbers of people who died from CO poisoning from gasoline powered
generator misuse after the recent hurricanes. Nobody ever died
breathing H2O fumes from burning Hydrogen.
Did that years ago, Sparky.
Posted them too, but you've ignored that post.
Here they are again for you.
Power plant blast kills 2, injures 49 others, 3 critically
http://www.firehouse.com/news/99/4/8_APblast.html

shuttle accident
http://www.mahal.org/article.php?articleID=3&page=1

pickup truck with hydrogen bottles
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2002/020917b.htm

Windtunnel accident kills 1, injures another
http://herald.kaist.ac.kr/news/0306n3.html

Teacher, lab assistant +3 students hurt performing hydrogen experiment
http://cd.ed.gov.hk/sci/laboratory/SAFETY/HYDROGEN.PDF

31. Richmond, CA, USA 10.04. 1989 hydrogen f - - 118,400,000 refinery (fire)
27. Grange-mouth, UK 22.03. 1987 hydrogen f - - 111,200,000 separator vessel
(fire)

Hydrogen explosion in Japanese nuclear plant shuts two units down
http://cnic.jp/english/news/misc/hamaoka_eccs7.html

Hydrogen evolved from torpedeo sinks Kursk
http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/incidents/kursk/18468.html

10/19/1989 Hydrogen Explosion in Spanish Nuclear Plant Worst Accident Since
Chernobyl

VANDELLOS 1, TARRATOGA, SPAIN Fire occurred in this graphite moderated
reactor owned by the French Spanish Consortium Hifrensa, a partner of
Electricite de France (EdF), when for reasons not yet known one turbine
stopped suddenly. The weight of the machine (5 tons) then proceeded to heat
up the lubrication oil which decomposed and lost hydrogen. The hydrogen
exploded and the turbine caught fire. Because the plant has no fire fighting
facilities fire fighters came from as far as 100 km away. The fire continued
for four hours. Because the fire fighters had not been given appropriate
training or equipment (as they were normal fire fighters and not members of
PENTA (Spain's nuclear emergency plant), they piled one calamity on top of
another. For instance because they did not understand the situation they
used water on electrical systems instead of foam. The basement flooded and
Carlos Fernadez, the planter director explained that the big smoke coming
from the plant was due to the burning of electric insulators. The plant has
a history of overheating and corrosion problems. After Chernobyl the
authorities (CSN) had ordered five modifications but only two were made,
partially because of the high costs. According to El Pais the International
Atomic Energy Agency said this was the worst accident in a nuclear
installation since Chernobyl. However reports received by WISE Tarratoga
state that IAEA is now denying this. Spain's Commission for nuclear energy
CSN has considered the fire to be the worst ever in a Spanish nuclear power
plant. The prototype of this plant, the St. Laurent de Eaux in France, was
also the site for the worst French nuclear power accident on the 13th March
1989. (WISE 13/11/89, El pais (Spain) 22, 24, 25, 27, and 28 Oct. 89.)

7/14/1981 Hydrogen Gas Explosion at San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant -
W.I.S.E. Vol.3 No.4 p.18

SAN ONOFRE, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A. A fire at the San Onofre nuclear plant in
California (U.S.A.) that occurred during routine testing, knocked out one of
the power plant's two back-up diesel generators. The plant was shut down for
several weeks beginning 17th July. One month previously, the facility was
returned to service after a 14 month shutdown for $67 million in repairs to
6,000 leaky and corroded tubes in three steam generators. An accidental
leak of gasses in a holding tank of the San Onofre nuclear plant caused an
explosion - which bent the bolts of an inspection hatch on the tank,
allowing radioactive gasses in the tank to escape into a radioactive waste
room. From there, the radioactive material was released into the atmosphere.

12/1/1977 Two Hydrogen/Oxygen Explosions at Millstone Nuclear Power
Station

MILLSTONE, CONNECTICUT, U.S.A. Two hydrogen/oxygen explosions in the waste
radioactive gas stream at Millstone Nuclear Power Station, Waterford,
Connecticut, U.S.A. Chimney door blew off. One worker slightly injured and
helpers contaminated with radioactivity. Reactor completely shut down.
(Parliamentary Legislative Research Service paper, Parliament Library,
Canberra)

1977 Incompetence Results in Hydrogen Explosion Spewing
Radioactive Waste - WISE

The Dounreay 15MW fast-breeder reactor started operations in 1959. It was
the first reactor designed to generate electricity and "breed" its own fuel
at the same time. Scientists of the era promised home electric bills as low
as one penny a year... The 220 feet (75 meter) deep shaft that must be
cleaned was dug to remove rock carved out during construction of a low-level
waste effluent pipe which runs into the Atlantic Ocean. In 1959 managers
plugged the bottom and began using it as a waste repository. Over the next
18 years at least 700 cubic meters of a deadly cocktail that included highly
enriched uranium and plutonium was secretly sunk in the shaft. It is not
known exactly what was dumped in the shaft between 1959 and 1977, as no
proper records were kept. Safety was so lax that waste was carried across
the site in open-top cardboard boxes or empty paint tins before being
dropped into the water at the bottom of the shaft. If containers did not
sink, workers shot holes in them with air pistols. The dumping stopped in
1977 after a major accident. Two elements, sodium and potassium coolant
reacted with the water and generated so much hydrogen that the mix exploded,
blowing off the top of the shaft and scattering radioactive particles over
the surrounding beaches. Then-director Clifford Blumheld assured the public
it was "a low intensity bang" with insignificant fall-out. However later
investigations revealed radiation levels were six times higher than Dounreay
had admitted.

10/7/62 Flash hydrogen fire in nuclear plant containment tanks,
McMurdo Sound, Antarctica

("From under the Rug" F.O.E. La Trobe
Univerhttp://ncsp.tamu.edu/reports/CCOHS/record1469.htmsity Vic.)
DATE OF ACCIDENT : 1984-04-20
PLACE OF ACCIDENT: Polysar Ltd., Vidal Street, Sarnia
BRIEF CAUSE OF DEATH: Multiple injuries to lungs and other areas of both
bodies.
BRIEF MANNER OF DEATH: Due to explosion of hydrogen cloud that caused shock
wave injuries.
ACCIDENT DESCRIPTION:
These two employees of Polysar Corporation were engaged in the start-up
of the Litol Unit after it had been shutdown for its six month
maintenance inspection. During the start-up, hydrogen gas was gradually
built up to over 600 pounds per square inch in the system when the
gasket sealing on an eighteen inch manway cover blew out allowed several
kilograms of hydrogen to escape which resulted in an explosion, killing
the two men and causing extensive damage.


http://www.ch2bc.org/bulletin/bulletin_1993.htm

http://earthsci.org/teacher/basicgeol/nuclear/nuclear.html

http://www.jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/Issues/2003/Jul/abs743_1.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nukenet/message/3514

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/415-6/4120.html

From the site
:http://www.uneptie.org/pc/apell/disasters/lists/disasterloc.html
Explosion 1988 15.06 Italy, Genoa Hydrogen 3 dead 2 injured 15 000 evacuated
Explosion 1991 14.02 Korea, Daesan Hydrogen gas 2 injured
Leakage (refinery) 1992 08.01 USA, Wilmington* Hydrocarbon / hydrogen 16
injured
Leakage and explosion 1992 16.01 Japan, Sodegaura* Hydrogen 10 dead 7
injured

www.slac.stanford.edu/esh/updates/v11-0696.pdf

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2003/08/22/165920.html

http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/offshore/safety/safealt/sa_176.html

http://www.grs.de/en/press_and_news/echo_detail.html?nd_ref=544

http://www.crhf.org.uk/incident03.html

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2002/01/26reporttracesmot.html

http://www.detrick.army.mil/detrick/bulletin/safety/work/batteryexplosion.cfm?select=safety

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1994/in94053.html

http://static.elibrary.com/r/reutersbusinessreport/april081999/focusonedead50hurtinfloridautilityexplosion/

www.dne.bnl.gov/etd/csc/1996/mar96.html

www.hawaii.edu/ehso/lab/ORExplosion.pdf

http://www.minesafe.org/minesafe_news/1068595019829.html

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FVP/1998_Oct_26/53148161/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.dmm.org.uk/reports/9614-07.htm

http://www.acusafe.com/Newsletter/Stories/0700News-MonthlyIncidents.htm

April 3 - Ormond Beach, FL: A hydrogen gas explosion blew the lid off a
heavy container at a heat treatment and brazing plant, crushing one worker's
hand.

http://failure-analysis-consultant.com/case_html/Refinery-Hydrogen-Fire.html
Don Lancaster
2005-11-18 19:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far
to
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance
to
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
ever
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Post by Bob Eldred
gain popular support in competition with other fuels.
"Bob Eldred" is a clumbsy liar who hates Hydrogen for reasons
unexplained. Hydrogen is produced in large quantities around the
world.
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
Just the ELECTROLYSIS method alone produces 3 tonnes ever second of
every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month
of
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
every year. That is only 4% of the total, so that every second 75
tonnes of H2 is being produced and consumed around the globe. with
4,500 TONNES of H2 every minute, there should be some news reports of
hydrogen accidents and deaths on a regular basis.
Out of 40,000,000,000 webpages google.com search engine only returns
http://tinyurl.com/92nqt
Results 1 - 100 of about 599 for Deaths by "Hydrogen Explosion".
By tediously going through the list, only the Space Shuttle Challenger
explosion can be found which actually applies to a "Hydrogen
Explosion"
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
Post by Sparky @zig-zag.net
search term. Most of the rest are scare fantasies speculation on H2
explosions or most commonly the two nuke plants that produced H2
explosions due to failures on the part of the nukes: Chernobyl and
Three Mile Island.
There are too frequent hydrogen explosions in non-nuclear power plants.
Large quantities of hydrogen is used in the generators for cooling
(hydrogen
Post by Science Cop
Post by K. Jones
provides low windage losses)
Seal oil systems fail, bad purges in generators/dryers, etc.
Mebbe you could read/study a little more before you preach.
K. Jones
Gee, then it wouldn't take you more than a few seconds to find these
"hydrogen Explosions" on the google search engine??? I looked and they
weren't there, but you go look and find some real cases that match
numbers of people who died from CO poisoning from gasoline powered
generator misuse after the recent hurricanes. Nobody ever died
breathing H2O fumes from burning Hydrogen.
Did that years ago, Sparky.
Posted them too, but you've ignored that post.
Here they are again for you.
Power plant blast kills 2, injures 49 others, 3 critically
http://www.firehouse.com/news/99/4/8_APblast.html
shuttle accident
http://www.mahal.org/article.php?articleID=3&page=1
pickup truck with hydrogen bottles
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2002/020917b.htm
Windtunnel accident kills 1, injures another
http://herald.kaist.ac.kr/news/0306n3.html
Teacher, lab assistant +3 students hurt performing hydrogen experiment
http://cd.ed.gov.hk/sci/laboratory/SAFETY/HYDROGEN.PDF
31. Richmond, CA, USA 10.04. 1989 hydrogen f - - 118,400,000 refinery (fire)
27. Grange-mouth, UK 22.03. 1987 hydrogen f - - 111,200,000 separator vessel
(fire)
Hydrogen explosion in Japanese nuclear plant shuts two units down
http://cnic.jp/english/news/misc/hamaoka_eccs7.html
Hydrogen evolved from torpedeo sinks Kursk
http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/incidents/kursk/18468.html
10/19/1989 Hydrogen Explosion in Spanish Nuclear Plant Worst Accident Since
Chernobyl
VANDELLOS 1, TARRATOGA, SPAIN Fire occurred in this graphite moderated
reactor owned by the French Spanish Consortium Hifrensa, a partner of
Electricite de France (EdF), when for reasons not yet known one turbine
stopped suddenly. The weight of the machine (5 tons) then proceeded to heat
up the lubrication oil which decomposed and lost hydrogen. The hydrogen
exploded and the turbine caught fire. Because the plant has no fire fighting
facilities fire fighters came from as far as 100 km away. The fire continued
for four hours. Because the fire fighters had not been given appropriate
training or equipment (as they were normal fire fighters and not members of
PENTA (Spain's nuclear emergency plant), they piled one calamity on top of
another. For instance because they did not understand the situation they
used water on electrical systems instead of foam. The basement flooded and
Carlos Fernadez, the planter director explained that the big smoke coming
from the plant was due to the burning of electric insulators. The plant has
a history of overheating and corrosion problems. After Chernobyl the
authorities (CSN) had ordered five modifications but only two were made,
partially because of the high costs. According to El Pais the International
Atomic Energy Agency said this was the worst accident in a nuclear
installation since Chernobyl. However reports received by WISE Tarratoga
state that IAEA is now denying this. Spain's Commission for nuclear energy
CSN has considered the fire to be the worst ever in a Spanish nuclear power
plant. The prototype of this plant, the St. Laurent de Eaux in France, was
also the site for the worst French nuclear power accident on the 13th March
1989. (WISE 13/11/89, El pais (Spain) 22, 24, 25, 27, and 28 Oct. 89.)
7/14/1981 Hydrogen Gas Explosion at San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant -
W.I.S.E. Vol.3 No.4 p.18
SAN ONOFRE, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A. A fire at the San Onofre nuclear plant in
California (U.S.A.) that occurred during routine testing, knocked out one of
the power plant's two back-up diesel generators. The plant was shut down for
several weeks beginning 17th July. One month previously, the facility was
returned to service after a 14 month shutdown for $67 million in repairs to
6,000 leaky and corroded tubes in three steam generators. An accidental
leak of gasses in a holding tank of the San Onofre nuclear plant caused an
explosion - which bent the bolts of an inspection hatch on the tank,
allowing radioactive gasses in the tank to escape into a radioactive waste
room. From there, the radioactive material was released into the atmosphere.
12/1/1977 Two Hydrogen/Oxygen Explosions at Millstone Nuclear Power
Station
MILLSTONE, CONNECTICUT, U.S.A. Two hydrogen/oxygen explosions in the waste
radioactive gas stream at Millstone Nuclear Power Station, Waterford,
Connecticut, U.S.A. Chimney door blew off. One worker slightly injured and
helpers contaminated with radioactivity. Reactor completely shut down.
(Parliamentary Legislative Research Service paper, Parliament Library,
Canberra)
1977 Incompetence Results in Hydrogen Explosion Spewing
Radioactive Waste - WISE
The Dounreay 15MW fast-breeder reactor started operations in 1959. It was
the first reactor designed to generate electricity and "breed" its own fuel
at the same time. Scientists of the era promised home electric bills as low
as one penny a year... The 220 feet (75 meter) deep shaft that must be
cleaned was dug to remove rock carved out during construction of a low-level
waste effluent pipe which runs into the Atlantic Ocean. In 1959 managers
plugged the bottom and began using it as a waste repository. Over the next
18 years at least 700 cubic meters of a deadly cocktail that included highly
enriched uranium and plutonium was secretly sunk in the shaft. It is not
known exactly what was dumped in the shaft between 1959 and 1977, as no
proper records were kept. Safety was so lax that waste was carried across
the site in open-top cardboard boxes or empty paint tins before being
dropped into the water at the bottom of the shaft. If containers did not
sink, workers shot holes in them with air pistols. The dumping stopped in
1977 after a major accident. Two elements, sodium and potassium coolant
reacted with the water and generated so much hydrogen that the mix exploded,
blowing off the top of the shaft and scattering radioactive particles over
the surrounding beaches. Then-director Clifford Blumheld assured the public
it was "a low intensity bang" with insignificant fall-out. However later
investigations revealed radiation levels were six times higher than Dounreay
had admitted.
10/7/62 Flash hydrogen fire in nuclear plant containment tanks,
McMurdo Sound, Antarctica
("From under the Rug" F.O.E. La Trobe
Univerhttp://ncsp.tamu.edu/reports/CCOHS/record1469.htmsity Vic.)
DATE OF ACCIDENT : 1984-04-20
PLACE OF ACCIDENT: Polysar Ltd., Vidal Street, Sarnia
BRIEF CAUSE OF DEATH: Multiple injuries to lungs and other areas of both
bodies.
BRIEF MANNER OF DEATH: Due to explosion of hydrogen cloud that caused shock
wave injuries.
These two employees of Polysar Corporation were engaged in the start-up
of the Litol Unit after it had been shutdown for its six month
maintenance inspection. During the start-up, hydrogen gas was gradually
built up to over 600 pounds per square inch in the system when the
gasket sealing on an eighteen inch manway cover blew out allowed several
kilograms of hydrogen to escape which resulted in an explosion, killing
the two men and causing extensive damage.
http://www.ch2bc.org/bulletin/bulletin_1993.htm
http://earthsci.org/teacher/basicgeol/nuclear/nuclear.html
http://www.jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/Issues/2003/Jul/abs743_1.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nukenet/message/3514
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/415-6/4120.html
From the site
:http://www.uneptie.org/pc/apell/disasters/lists/disasterloc.html
Explosion 1988 15.06 Italy, Genoa Hydrogen 3 dead 2 injured 15 000 evacuated
Explosion 1991 14.02 Korea, Daesan Hydrogen gas 2 injured
Leakage (refinery) 1992 08.01 USA, Wilmington* Hydrocarbon / hydrogen 16
injured
Leakage and explosion 1992 16.01 Japan, Sodegaura* Hydrogen 10 dead 7
injured
www.slac.stanford.edu/esh/updates/v11-0696.pdf
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2003/08/22/165920.html
http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/offshore/safety/safealt/sa_176.html
http://www.grs.de/en/press_and_news/echo_detail.html?nd_ref=544
http://www.crhf.org.uk/incident03.html
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2002/01/26reporttracesmot.html
http://www.detrick.army.mil/detrick/bulletin/safety/work/batteryexplosion.cfm?select=safety
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1994/in94053.html
http://static.elibrary.com/r/reutersbusinessreport/april081999/focusonedead50hurtinfloridautilityexplosion/
www.dne.bnl.gov/etd/csc/1996/mar96.html
www.hawaii.edu/ehso/lab/ORExplosion.pdf
http://www.minesafe.org/minesafe_news/1068595019829.html
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FVP/1998_Oct_26/53148161/p1/article.jhtml
http://www.dmm.org.uk/reports/9614-07.htm
http://www.acusafe.com/Newsletter/Stories/0700News-MonthlyIncidents.htm
April 3 - Ormond Beach, FL: A hydrogen gas explosion blew the lid off a
heavy container at a heat treatment and brazing plant, crushing one worker's
hand.
http://failure-analysis-consultant.com/case_html/Refinery-Hydrogen-Fire.html
Hydrogen in compressed or liquified form is ludicrously more dangerous
than gasoline.

It is not even remotely close.

See the DOT Orange book or ask any hazmat specialist.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: ***@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
beav
2005-11-14 21:29:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 09:04:44 -0500, "Dave Gower"
Post by Dave Gower
Post by Bob Eldred
High pressure tankage proposed for automotive application is far to
dangerous, inconvenient, expensive and restrictive in performance to ever
gain popular support in competition with other fuels. That too will prove to
be a show stopper as we get beyond the hyped up demos.
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles. But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel. While hydrogen may be difficult to use in personal transportation, it
may be more practical in larger vehicles, particularly in congested urban
environments. Delivery trucks, buses and subway trains may be examples.
Hydrogen fuel cells may first come into their own as the power component of
heavy urban hybrid vehicles.
the problem is the energy requirement that goes into H2 to be made
available for its end purpose.
Post by Dave Gower
Additionally, there IS a method of storing and transporting hydrogen as a
vehicle fuel which is completely practical and in fact is being done in
hundreds of thousands of vehicles at this very moment. That is to combine
use one carbon atom to lock up four hydrogen atoms, otherwise known as
methane. The carbon is widely available as waste product throughout all
modern economies. To make that really economical we need a good fuel cell
technology that can burn the carbon atom without contaminating the internals
of the fuel cell, something that is being worked on.
right. matter of fact, most H2 these days is made by the water gas
shift reaction anyway:

CH4 + H2O(steam) ------> CO + 3H2

just the opposite of what you propose.
one could make a legitimate argument that the natural gas has more
intrinsic value.
truth be told, H2 manufactured now is strictly for industrial demand.
comparison to retail fuel marketing is just wrong...
Post by Dave Gower
It's fine to objectively examine the technical problems of new technologies,
but it seems to me that opposition to hydrogen has become something of a
religion to some people around here.
its not a religion. its the intersection of physics and economics.
one torpedoes the other. the physics is well established. it points
out to terrible economics. the economics of what is required is well
established. H2 can't even come close.

besides, this sparky, lifeform and H2PVnow guy has about 10 other nyms
that i know of, and i'm new here. its the same rant, same style, same
insults same old same old from post to post. i'm waiting for a
logical breakthru from him. i'm sure that i'll be waiting for a while
Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
2005-11-14 21:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles. But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel. While hydrogen may be difficult to use in personal transportation, it
may be more practical in larger vehicles, particularly in congested urban
environments. Delivery trucks, buses and subway trains may be examples.
Hydrogen fuel cells may first come into their own as the power component of
heavy urban hybrid vehicles.
the problem is the energy requirement that goes into H2 to be made
available for its end purpose.
Why is that a "problem"? It's not coming out of your pocket -- it's
coming "free" delivered from the sun as sunlight on a daily basis to
most areas of the planet. The globally averaged incoming energy is
equivilent to one Kilowatt per meter square.

This is 4.047 MEGAWATTS per acre.

The problem is not figuring out where the energy is coming from, but
figuring out practrical ways to harvest it. Farmers routinely harvest
30,000 pounds of sugarcane or beets per acre, which is known to be
transformable into alcohol fuel, as Brazil does as a national energy
policy.

Does the human race have better methods of capture and conversion into
useful energy than that? Yes, dozens, scores, hundreds of them.

The Australian National University is far ahead of Luddite USA in many
solar technologies. The trough-PV technology they call CHAPS is
measured at 69% efficiency in total electricity and heat content
captured.

That's 2.8 megawatts per acre captured at the solar collectors. Are
there ways to improve on that? Yes, dozens, scores, hundreds of ways to
improve on that using "SYNERGY", which is "the whole exceeds the sum of
the parts".

Buckminster Fuller travelled the world giving lectures and often asked
his audiences if they knew the word "synergy". In chemistry audiences,
almost everybody raised their hands -- in other audiences almost nobody
did.

It is obvious that you do not understand "synergy". You expose your
ignorance to the world by the statements you make and the ones you
don't think to make because comprehensive systems thinking is outside
of your experience bubble.
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
Additionally, there IS a method of storing and transporting hydrogen as a
vehicle fuel which is completely practical and in fact is being done in
hundreds of thousands of vehicles at this very moment. That is to combine
use one carbon atom to lock up four hydrogen atoms, otherwise known as
methane. The carbon is widely available as waste product throughout all
modern economies. To make that really economical we need a good fuel cell
technology that can burn the carbon atom without contaminating the internals
of the fuel cell, something that is being worked on.
right. matter of fact, most H2 these days is made by the water gas
One should not change the subject to inefficient and undesirable
examples to "win" an argument. The entire rationale for Hydrogen is to
leave all forms of carbon chemistry to other uses besides heat and
motion power.
Post by beav
CH4 + H2O(steam) ------> CO + 3H2
just the opposite of what you propose.
one could make a legitimate argument that the natural gas has more
intrinsic value.
truth be told, H2 manufactured now is strictly for industrial demand.
comparison to retail fuel marketing is just wrong...
While it is "JUST WRONG" to equate carbon-economics to H2 economy, it
is true for very different reasons than you posit.
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
It's fine to objectively examine the technical problems of new technologies,
but it seems to me that opposition to hydrogen has become something of a
religion to some people around here.
its not a religion. its the intersection of physics and economics.
one torpedoes the other. the physics is well established. it points
out to terrible economics. the economics of what is required is well
established. H2 can't even come close.
Economics is the study of what people usually DO, instead of what they
claim they think they ought to do. It is ONLY true inside a scenario.
The scenario of "cheap carbon-fuels with no environmental consequences"
has a truth to it which is internally consistent, and comparing H2 to
carbon-fuels in that particular scenario gives the advantage to
hydrocarbons.

That particular scenario was not true 1,000,000 years ago, before
burning wood carbon was mastered, and will not be true again in a
future time. A fuller accounting of the waste products of carbon
combustion is occurring and it is changing the economic assumptions.

The physics never changes in the duration of the human species, but the
economics can change abruptly merely by fuller accounting. A person
such as yourself has no excuse for not understanding the consequences
of the chemical formula you yourself wrote.

The physics of carbon waste products are as well understood globally as
the chemistry of their combustion. The economics has also been reckoned
with. Globally there is a rush to sift the processes which turn H2 into
an economic good. The USA is a laggard in this process.

<skunk piss comments deleted>
beav
2005-11-15 00:43:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
While this is obviously true, what is not sure is that high-pressure storage
is the ultimate way to store and transport hydrogen for automobiles. But
whatever method is used, there certainly is a lot more R&D work to be done.
I think it is highly premature to write off hydrogen as a future vehicle
fuel. While hydrogen may be difficult to use in personal transportation, it
may be more practical in larger vehicles, particularly in congested urban
environments. Delivery trucks, buses and subway trains may be examples.
Hydrogen fuel cells may first come into their own as the power component of
heavy urban hybrid vehicles.
the problem is the energy requirement that goes into H2 to be made
available for its end purpose.
Why is that a "problem"? It's not coming out of your pocket -- it's
coming "free" delivered from the sun as sunlight on a daily basis to
most areas of the planet.
yeah. agreed. as low density energy that needs to be converted to
high density energy that utilizable to create some kind of work.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
The globally averaged incoming energy is
equivilent to one Kilowatt per meter square.
This is 4.047 MEGAWATTS per acre.
The problem is not figuring out where the energy is coming from, but
figuring out practrical ways to harvest it. Farmers routinely harvest
30,000 pounds of sugarcane or beets per acre,
per growing season. that's a far different unit than KJ/sec/m^2

its the difference between kilometers per hour and furlongs per
fortnight.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
which is known to be
transformable into alcohol fuel, as Brazil does as a national energy
policy.
bagasse is a waste product. sugar grown in the US is subsidized by
the US Gov't. the only thing that's really grown is pork.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
Does the human race have better methods of capture and conversion into
useful energy than that? Yes, dozens, scores, hundreds of them.
firewood, coal, petroleum, wind, hydro, nuclear or variations on that
theme
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
The Australian National University is far ahead of Luddite USA in many
solar technologies. The trough-PV technology they call CHAPS is
measured at 69% efficiency in total electricity and heat content
captured.
lets build them all over the place. hmmm. maybe you can expound on
the limiting factors?
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
That's 2.8 megawatts per acre captured at the solar collectors. Are
there ways to improve on that? Yes, dozens, scores, hundreds of ways to
improve on that using "SYNERGY", which is "the whole exceeds the sum of
the parts".
Buckminster Fuller travelled the world giving lectures and often asked
his audiences if they knew the word "synergy". In chemistry audiences,
almost everybody raised their hands -- in other audiences almost nobody
did.
It is obvious that you do not understand "synergy". You expose your
ignorance to the world by the statements you make and the ones you
don't think to make because comprehensive systems thinking is outside
of your experience bubble.
entertain me.
my only problem is when synergy leaves my physics experience bubble.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
Additionally, there IS a method of storing and transporting hydrogen as a
vehicle fuel which is completely practical and in fact is being done in
hundreds of thousands of vehicles at this very moment. That is to combine
use one carbon atom to lock up four hydrogen atoms, otherwise known as
methane. The carbon is widely available as waste product throughout all
modern economies. To make that really economical we need a good fuel cell
technology that can burn the carbon atom without contaminating the internals
of the fuel cell, something that is being worked on.
right. matter of fact, most H2 these days is made by the water gas
One should not change the subject to inefficient and undesirable
examples to "win" an argument. The entire rationale for Hydrogen is to
leave all forms of carbon chemistry to other uses besides heat and
motion power.
Post by beav
CH4 + H2O(steam) ------> CO + 3H2
just the opposite of what you propose.
one could make a legitimate argument that the natural gas has more
intrinsic value.
truth be told, H2 manufactured now is strictly for industrial demand.
comparison to retail fuel marketing is just wrong...
While it is "JUST WRONG" to equate carbon-economics to H2 economy, it
is true for very different reasons than you posit.
economics have to stand on its own. the unitary economic unit is
"dollars". that's what crosses over and crosses between the two
options.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
Post by beav
Post by Dave Gower
It's fine to objectively examine the technical problems of new technologies,
but it seems to me that opposition to hydrogen has become something of a
religion to some people around here.
its not a religion. its the intersection of physics and economics.
one torpedoes the other. the physics is well established. it points
out to terrible economics. the economics of what is required is well
established. H2 can't even come close.
Economics is the study of what people usually DO, instead of what they
claim they think they ought to do. It is ONLY true inside a scenario.
The scenario of "cheap carbon-fuels with no environmental consequences"
has a truth to it which is internally consistent, and comparing H2 to
carbon-fuels in that particular scenario gives the advantage to
hydrocarbons.
ahhh! you DO see!!!! the only change i would make to your statement
is that it should be "cheap carbon fuels outcompete alternatives."
the fact that there IS environmental consequence is an externality
that capitalism doesn't handle well. and THAT'S the rub! which
polity is going to enforce a massive economic change to an alternative
that is very likely to be more expensive/socially disruptive than the
current paradigm.

there aren't enough technocrats in political power to effect this
change
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
That particular scenario was not true 1,000,000 years ago, before
burning wood carbon was mastered, and will not be true again in a
future time. A fuller accounting of the waste products of carbon
combustion is occurring and it is changing the economic assumptions.
The physics never changes in the duration of the human species, but the
economics can change abruptly merely by fuller accounting.
i'm forced to agree.

i'm also forced to ask, who gets to call the shots?
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
A person
such as yourself has no excuse for not understanding the consequences
of the chemical formula you yourself wrote.
oh, i absolutely do!

however, it should be said that our current choices suck, despite your
one man attempt to change the world. and i don't say that with any
disparagement intended.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
The physics of carbon waste products are as well understood globally as
the chemistry of their combustion. The economics has also been reckoned
with.
not yet they haven't!
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
Globally there is a rush to sift the processes which turn H2 into
an economic good.
research continues. maybe methanol will be the next wave.
Post by Steve Schulin @goofyfucker.com
The USA is a laggard in this process.
<shrug>
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